Ignition Coil Advice

"i86hotdogs" (i86hotdogs) 05/26/2020 at 09:14 • Filed to: None

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Upon seeing the improvement Long Voyager saw with MSD coils, I started looking to some for the van. Unsurprisingly, not as easy to find for the ol’ 2.5. I do know the D uratec shares a lot of parts with its smaller bretherens (2.0 and 2.5).

I searched aftermarket coils for Mazda and other Fords that use a Duratec and found these

For reference, here is the OEM coil for the TC below.

The dimensions match, as does the connector fitting (per the images and my questionable eyesight). Anyone here have insight on other factors I should be looking in to? Just buy them and trail by fire?

Long_Voyager94 > i86hotdogs 05/26/2020 at 10:00

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You never know until you try.

They told me I couldn’t put the 3.8 in my van because it never came with one, yet I did.

Sovande > i86hotdogs 05/26/2020 at 10:01

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If the car is stock use stock. My old Volvo was tuned with an additional 75hp and almost 100 lbft and it was fine with stock coils, plugs and air filter. I would need a real detailed explanation as to what the advantages of aftermarket coils are before I spent more for them than stock. Now if the prices are the same and one is a cool color, maybe. But I wouldn't expect any performance benefits from them. 

i86hotdogs > Sovande 05/26/2020 at 10:29

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The cost for both are similar (the 4 pack of Accel are actually cheaper than buying 4 motorcraft separately. I’m not expecting a huge boost; just a cleaner burn and better quality burn.

CalzoneGolem > Long_Voyager94 05/26/2020 at 10:59

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Long_Voyager94 > Sovande 05/26/2020 at 12:09

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More spark = Better burn.

Better burn = More power/better efficiency.

The basis is OEM only uses the most cost effective option to get the job done. An aftermarket coil can produce more spark, in turn burning cleaner/more efficiently, in turn making more power.

Sovande > Long_Voyager94 05/26/2020 at 13:30

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How? How can it do that? That’s the part I don’t understand. Reading about it seems to indicate that in stock applications there is zero benefits to aftermarket coils since they won’t magically produce any more powerful spark. People run cars and trucks up to crazy horsepower with stock coils, because aftermarket coils make no difference. You don’t need them to make 500hp on an LS motor. I get the principals you outlined, but I don’t think aftermarket coils are capable of producing “more spark” as all the coils will fire is what is needed to bridge the gap on the plug . No more, no less. You detailed that with new plugs and coil packs your idle was smoother and misfires were gone. Those problems would have been solved with new plugs and stock coils also. 

gettingoldercarguy > Sovande 05/26/2020 at 14:05

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There’s a lot of information out there.

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/138-0307-ignition-solutions-plasma-booster/

I run the ignition solutions/Ignition projects/okada coils on my wrx. They were patented by an Austrian bloke many moons ago and I remember him trying to find a buyer for the business back when I was at a recently founded Cobb.

Sovande > gettingoldercarguy 05/26/2020 at 14:33

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Well that’s just a typical advertisement for a product thinly veiled as a product write up, so I don’t buy it. Without upgrading anything other than the coils, how do they provide “more energy?”

All the spark needs to do is ignite the fuel and the stock system does that fine. Whether lighting the fuel with a match or a flamethrower is irrelevant, it just needs to be lit. The difference provided by higher spark temp would be measured in the milliseconds and not noticeable on a stock engine.

gettingoldercarguy > Sovande 05/26/2020 at 14:55

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I don’t know what to tell you. I’ve seen it countless times on a dyno.

It’ll look like you’re running a degree or two more advance,but you’re not. You’ll see the differences in cylinder pressure rise which will allow you to make the pressure over the range of crank angle where it can do the most work. The equipment for monitoring that is fuck off expensive though.

If you start by lighting off a few molecules of your mixture, it exponentially gains in combustion of molecules until you have as compl ete of combustion as you’ll have for that stroke. By starting out with a few more molecules burning, the completion of combustion happens earlier.

Sovande > gettingoldercarguy 05/26/2020 at 15:11

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Early enough that you can tell the difference on a stock 4 cylinder car that never revs higher than 6000 rpms? 

Long_Voyager94 > Sovande 05/26/2020 at 16:01

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“The key is to maintain coil voltage under load -the acceleration phase, with little or no drop-off.” This is where Davis says it’s important to understand that a coil needs to perform consistently from idle through the shift point or redline.

The OEM GM HEI coils were an excellent example of this. Davis says that the OEM coils were notorious for drop off above or about 5,000 rpm. That might be ok for a half-ton pickup that never sees more than 4,500 rpm, but on a muscle car, especially one that’s been modified, losing voltage means lost engine performance, and not being able to take advantage of the engine’s potential modified or stock. Developing a better HEI coil was actually where Performance Distributors began in the ignition business many years ago.

Some more reading for you: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ignition-coil-tech/

https://dsportmag.com/the-tech/ignition-101-understanding-ignition-systems-for-maximum-performance/

Honestly I don’t know why you’re arguing over something you yourself said you have no knowledge over, nor why you brought it up yet again. 

Jb boin > Long_Voyager94 05/26/2020 at 16:24

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At least on electronic ignition , you can’t gain power with a good coil but you can loose some with a bad one.

The main difference between coils is the reliability (especially with high temperature environment ) and i f the coil is changing the advance “ b y itself” then something is wrong with it .

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Sometimes the OEM coils are known to fail prematurely and some other manufacturers (that are also OEM) can be recommended as the replacement (and sometimes even be the factory replacement part), like the A udi 1.8T 20v 210/225hp engines that were fitted from factory with Hitachi all-in-one coils that were failing prematurely due to the high temperature environment then i believe replaced by NGK ones later ; Beru ones are also a recommended replacement (both brands are ignition specialists) .

gettingoldercarguy > Sovande 05/26/2020 at 16:48

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I don’t know if you remember people advancing the timing on their distributor to pick up some power. Mustangs, M iatas, MR 2s, etc. I think that works on every car, regardless of power or red line.

gettingoldercarguy > Sovande 05/26/2020 at 17:05

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I just saw long voyager s updated post and saw these for the first time.

https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/products/ignition-parts/spark-plugs/ruthenium-spark-plugs

Pretty cool stuff and I'd love to see their test rigs.

Sovande > Long_Voyager94 05/26/2020 at 17:06

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Because after doing a lot of reading in the past day about the subject, I think I’m right and you’re wrong. I don’t think aftermarket coil packs are better than stock coil packs in an otherwise stock application. Further, the top article you linked is talking about a coil and distributor setup in a muscle car (it even references the stock HEI ignition) not coil on plugs as the OP is asking about. And another thing, I’ll ask questions as often as I want. So buckle up. 

Long_Voyager94 > Sovande 05/26/2020 at 17:31

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You’re allowed to your opinion, right or wrong.

You’re also allowed to questions.

Dyno tests also say otherwise. I’m sorry, but I’ll believe real world tests against theories.

Mind you, 2 of those tests are on bone stock Pentastar engines, both of which saw 10+ hp and gains under the curve.

Sovande > Long_Voyager94 05/26/2020 at 17:59

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Thanks for allowing me to ask questions.